Philosophy dialogues facilitate difficult discussions on the separation of church and state

Editor's Note: The opinions expressed in this article are that of the speakers themselves and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the San Marcos Daily Record.

“I don’t have to tell you that we have a lot of controversial issues going on about the relationship between church and state right now,” said Jo Ann Carson, Texas State University senior philosophy lecturer. “In the philosophy department at Texas State, we are strongly committed to not avoiding discussion of controversial or delicate issues, and we believe and we’re committed to the idea that it can be done in a way that’s actually constructive and respectful and recognizes alternative points of view.” In today’s society, it is seemingly even more difficult to talk about competing, emotionally charged topics. Cancel culture, or other types of consequences, can have a chilling effect on discussion. With hopes of facilitating in-depth conversations among community members on various topics, Carson moderates philosophy discussions at the university and also at the San Marcos Public Library.

As part of Dialogues at the Library, which has a total of 9 discussions on differing topics, there was a discussion on Feb. 28 that covered politics, religion and education and focused mostly on the separation of church and state, or in this case, the panelists’ apparent concern that the separation is disappearing.

The panelists for the discussion were Paul Buntyn, of the Abundant Life Christian Church in San Marcos, Peter Casparian, of St. Mark's Episcopal Church in San Marcos, Dwonna Goldstone, TXST African American Studies associate professor and director of the program, Todd Salmi, TXST United Campus Ministry director, Joseph Laycock, TXST philosophy associate professor, and James Talarico, Texas State Representative of District 50.

Laycock said that James Madison thought that the best way to keep the church from running the government in the United States of America would be to keep the government completely secular, and the people could decide for themselves about matters having to do with faith.

“Those assumptions are enshrined in the first amendment of the Bill of Rights,” Laycock said. “‘There should be no law respecting an establishment of religion.’ That’s the basis of separation of church and state.”

Talarico said he has spent the majority of his political career fighting against what he called Christian Nationalist attempts to “indoctrinate children” in public schools. Even though he himself is a Christian, he supports people’s right to choose.

“I never thought I would talk so much about religion as a public official,” Talrico said. “It’s become more and more necessary as the separation between church and state has eroded in recent years.”

Christianity Today describes Christian Nationalism as “the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Popularly, Christian nationalists assert that America is and must remain a ‘Christian nation’ — not merely as an observation about American history, but as a prescriptive program for what America must continue to be in the future. Scholars like Samuel Huntington have made a similar argument: that America is defined by its ‘Anglo-Protestant’ past and that we will lose our identity and our freedom if we do not preserve our cultural inheritance.

It continues, “Christian nationalists do not reject the First Amendment and do not advocate for theocracy, but they do believe that Christianity should enjoy a privileged position in the public square. The term ‘Christian nationalism,’ is relatively new, and its advocates generally do not use it of themselves, but it accurately describes American nationalists who believe American identity is inextricable from Christianity.”

Salm talked about the line between encouraging moral behavior and legislating it. He said in the bible there is the fall of Babylon that was attributed to the people not watching over morality and failing to keep Babylon holy.

“Maybe there’s been a slippage also on the faith side where that has gotten more and more active,” Salmi said. “Instead of just holding people morally accountable … and trying to encourage people to act right [there may be a move] to now start to legislate morality.”

Carson said that there are books that have suggested that the movement toward Christian Nationalism is actually white Christian Nationalism because the underlying assumptions have racist undertones.

Buntyn said that if you have the “wrong people in the seats of influence” racism will continue.

“I would hope that we would see that and begin to talk about it,” Buntyn said. “I hope one day… that there may be a time to come together and talk about solutions. And we may begin another ripple effect, because we’ve got people like [Texas Governor Greg] Abbott that are misusing political structures for their own political gain.”

Carson said that images from Jan. 6, 2021 at the U.S. capitol show many of the people involved displaying Christian symbols such as a Christian flag and a sign that said ‘Jesus saves.’ She said one person led a prayer on the Senate floor.

Laycock said that an attack related to election results is the most “unpatriotic thing that you can possibly do.” He said he sees the political situation at hand as a result of the increase in diversity amongst the population, which has stoked a fear of being replaced.

“When they’re trying to do things like put up ten commandments monuments or put chaplains in public schools or declare the election invalid, it is a way to kind of shore up through government or through fear what they used to take for granted under sheer population and control,” Laycock said.

Talarico, whose state representative district largely covers the northern part of Austin, shared his fears about the possible direction of the country.

“I know what’s coming. I see it every day at the Texas Capitol,” Talarico said. “They are testing these ideas here before they’re taken nationwide — banning books, banning abortion, forcing teachers to display the ten commandments, replacing school counselors with untrained chaplains, defunding public schools to pay for private christian schools. We are on the verge of a Christian Theocracy in this country.”

Salmi said Christian Nationalism is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He used the Methodist church fragmentation between the Southern, slave-holding states and the Northern states during the civil war as an example of a split that could occur in the Christian religion now.

“My worry, as the canary in the coal mine, is it's easier to take mainline institutions, which might be moderating influences,” Salmi said. “If you split people, and you put people in their camps then that allows society to be fragmented as well. It’s easier to control people when they are in their lanes.”

The overall conversation obviously made some in the audience visibly uncomfortable, but there were not many who spoke up with opposing viewpoints, or even questions, besides one audience member who spoke in favor of private schools.

In an attempt to separate what was being referred to as a Christian Nationalist from Christians in general, Pastor Darius Todd, an audience member and pastor at Abundant Life Christian Church, asked the panel to clearly define what a Christian Nationalist is.

Talarico attempted to define Christian Nationalism as 'the worship of power, social power [and] economic power, in the name of Christ.'

Todd then asked if the panel would view him as a Christian Nationalist, and shared the way he handles his Christianity as a voter. He said that he votes according to his understanding of what Christ would want and would protest against things he believes that Christ would not want.

“Are you saying I’m a Christian Nationalist if I go stand up in front of the White House or the Supreme Court?” Todd said.

Carson responded, 'Only if you try to impose your views on someone else.'

Todd said that “as a citizen, I feel it’s important that I’m able to voice my concerns and my opinions and pass laws that would help us as a people to be better.”

Talarico said he wanted to raise awareness of people that would like the country to be a Christian theocracy.

“Those folks have a right to express that opinion. Those folks have a right to fight for that at the ballot box,” Talarico said. “What I just want everyone else to be aware of is that is what we’re moving the country toward, and if that makes you uncomfortable … then you need to make your voice heard in this process.”

Salmi said he is both a Christian and from a military family.

“I serve Jesus, and I serve in a church and the church has its flaws,” Salmi said. “I think people of good will can have these hard conversations, and I think we can come together and try to really work on issues. We shouldn’t cancel people for sincerely held moral beliefs … I think that we also need to, as a society, not impose moral beliefs on people, because then it’s not a choice. It’s just you are going to obey or not obey.”

Upcoming Dialogues at the Library are each held at 3:30 p.m. at the San Marcos Public Library. Elizabeth Bishop, TXST associate professor of history, will facilitate a discussion called Speaking of the Middle East on March 27. Alexander Laban Hinton, Rutgers University Professor of Sociology and Anthropology, will facilitate a discussion called It can Happen Here about the possibility of genocide in the U.S. on April 3. Katherine Southwick, American Bar Association Rule of Law Initiative legal scholar, will facilitate a discussion on Criminal Justice Measures to Prevent Mass Atrocity on April 10. Jeff Gessas, TXST Philosophy lecturer, will facilitate a discussion on Engaged Ecology and Environmental Justice on April 17.